So there’s been quite a bit of discussion, again, on Tyranids lately. I thought I’d put my thoughts down not for the sake of argument but rather clarification (and any discussion which results from this is good). My Armies in 5th articles cover how Tyranids operate in 5th and AbusePuppy's review covers the ins and outs of their book. This article looks at niether but rather focuses on some key issues in terms of competitiveness and competitive options. First, my broad stance. Tyranids are a good army in 5th edition and their codex has quite a few viable options and very few so-so or down right bad choices. I think in general most people outside of forums agree with this but where we disagree is how this executed so I will explore this issue some more. Whilst I believe Tyranids are a competitive army in 5th with their current book (even post FAQ), in terms of actual codex wide options I think they (alongside Space Marines) are the weakest 5th ed codex. Note: this is not in terms of competitive balance as both Vanilla Marines and Tyranids are competitive but rather in terms of flexibility. For example the Vanilla codex lists don’t really scale too well and have limited options in Heavy Support. So let’s take a look at the Tyranids codex with this understanding in mind.
There is one major issue in terms of army design. Nothing to do with internal balance or ability to deal with tanks, etc. Rather, the general army style is always going to be quite similar because Tyranids only have the option for Foot. Whilst some Tyranid armies are going to be faster than others (I.e. using Raveners, Shrikes, Flyrants, Spores or Harpies, etc.) the general theme of a competitive army is pretty similar in that it is nearly always foot. There are reserve options but this list can be quite weak against certain lists and was nerfed by the FAQ. This is the only codex that has this issue because there are no mech options in that no other unit is effectively carrying another unit to battle and thus protecting it. Every other Imperial or Xenos army is capable of fielding mech, hybrid and foot lists which opens up a lot more build options. This is paramount to the perceived weakness of the Tyranid codex as it limits army-wide flexibility.
However, is this a weakness? Yes and no. You obviously have less overall army options simply because you don’t have the ability to start lists with really diverse pre-conceptions. Rather than picking a concept and then potentially having multiple completely different army styles with which to run with said idea, Tyranids for the most part, have one broad style. Within this style there are a lot of options, just like within a mech style of list there are a lot of options, but whilst other books are quite capable of fielding three distinct styles and using a lot of units in all of those styles, Tyranids have just the one. This is a disadvantage in terms how many army variants you can field but isn’t necessarily equate on the battlefield. Look at Tau and Witchunters who both can run very effective mono-builds and do quite well and Tyranids are not a mono-build by any stretch of the word.
Which brings us to this next point. There are a couple of units which are simple stand-outs for Tyranids in Hive Guard and Tervigons. Both of these units are fantastic value and a lot of people feel they are auto-includes for any army and an army without them isn’t a good army because these units provide so well within 5th edition. Basically, Hive Guard shut down mech and in particular light mech spam and Tervigons produce a lot of scoring and bodies. I disagree with this. Whilst these units are fantastic they create a very particular type of list which generally moves across the board and aims to dominate midfield. This can obviously be changed with pumping a lot of points into your Fast Attack but isn’t necessarily better or a completely different army. Remember, the majority of Tyranid anti-tank is about suppression rather than destruction. Whilst weight of fire will eventually drag tanks down, the lack of mech defenses and mobility means Tyranids need to slow enemy mech down which their firepower is generally quite good at. You’ll look at most of their anti-tank and other than Zoans or HVC, everything is multiple shots and units put out many more than just two.
What this essentially means is when you don’t run Hive Guard, your overall anti-tank is more reliant on your MC statlines and other firepower which is where other issues come for certain individuals, I.e. where is this other firepower? Nothing else in the codex provides the rate of fire and strength Hive Guard do which makes them such a brilliant choice (beyond being price effective and their special rules and their statline…) so when you don’t run them, you aren’t looking for something to replace them but rather a different list. For example, running Zoans and Fexstars gives you a large amount of S10AP1 shots and a lot of twin-linked S6 shots but the army is much more in your face. Here powers like Onslaught or choices like Raveners come to the fore as they increase the threat range of the army and work well within it (these options are of course viable in other lists as well).
This brings us to the Tervigon which in essence, isn’t replacable either (we are only gong to look at it from a Troop perspective as I think that‘s everyone‘s main issue?). I mean, it’s a scoring MC for crying out loud… However, without MC saturation or target priority issues (MC + Warriors/Raveners/Shrikes to overwhelm ample targets for S8+ guns), that MC scoring status isn’t too flash. This generally isn’t an issue because nearly every army includes 4+ MC at 1500+ or some kind of target priority issues but again, this delivers the Tyranids to a certain type of build. Again, Tervigons excel in midfield and want to maintain close-knit cohesion with the rest of the force so they can be buffed by Tyrants and buff their little bubs + cast powers. So we know this guy is irreplaceable if we are looking for a midfield buffing unit…what if we don’t want that? Rather we want Hormagants to support our Raveners or Genestealers to disrupt our opponent and rather than the midfield supremacy of T6’R’Us let’s go for the aggressive and scary combat nature of Warriors. Backed up by Hive Guard and T-Fexes and either out flanking Genestealers or faster Raveners/Hormagants, these guys (and a potential Hive Tyrant or Primes or Fexstars rather than T-Fexes) are just plain scary in midfield and beyond. Rather than looking to feed layers of minions to the enemy and eventually overwhelm them or drag MC statlines into the mix (which to me BTW, is really fluffy…), this type of army would be based around shock assault units and destroying whatever the suppression fire pops out of transports.
Both of these styles of lists are quite viable IMO and whilst I prefer the Hive Guard/T-Fex/Tervigon style of army (I <3 my midfield armies), it is not the only option for Tyranid commanders. Both HGs and Tervigons (and T-Fexes) bring something to the table which isn't really found elsewhere in the Tyranid book. However, units like Raveners, Harpies, Fexstars, Venomthropes, Zoans, Warriors, etc. all have these options which are quite unique to them and don't see significant play within the type of list I run (which has many spin-offs). Fexstar based armies for example are great for old Nidzilla players who have a bunch of Dakkafexes and Warriors are actually a usable and capable combat unit. The Tyranid book is all about opportunity cost and whilst Hive Guard and Tervigons have rather easy to identify strengths (and therefore steep opportunity costs), armies are certainly viable without both of them in there. Now taking a list without both of these options? I think the FAQ really killed that. The above list with no Hive Guard (I.e. zoans + fexstars) needs the movement boost of Onslaught and the reserve army with spores was a great non-Tervigon option here but not being able to drop Primes in or have a 2+ (which was expected really…) reserve roll was annoying and turned a lot of people away from the list. I don’t think it was too flash to begin with as you still had some anti-tank issues and were relying on single Fexes or Trygons to suppress, survive and then kill in combat.
I love the Tyranid codex in its current incarnation. I love the balance one can get between little gribblies, medium buggers and big nasty monsters; it just feels right to me and the way I've always envisioned Tyranid armies. This doesn't mean it's right (or wrong) in terms of fluff but in terms of feel; there are people out there who like it. In terms of gameplay, yes I agree it's not the best 5th edition book out there. Whilst I think this is in part due to Tyranids only having a foot option, GW further compounded the problem with their FAQ. This doesn't make them unplayable or poor competitors though and whilst in terms of overall awesomeness it falls short of other 5th ed books, it doesn't on the tabletop and it doesn't always require two units to be utilised extensively to do so.
VT2 79p · 742 weeks ago
You have a lot of things to pick from, but realistically, why would you run something else?
I never heard of a marine player who was sad or butthurt that he or she is 'forced' to run effective, shooty, reliable elites.
@masterslowpoke · 742 weeks ago
VT2 79p · 742 weeks ago
tzeentchling 76p · 742 weeks ago
It's somewhat similar to Tau in some ways. A lot of Tau players would love to be able to use their Elite slots on something other than Crisis (assuming there were such options), but you screw your army over too much if you don't take Crisis, because they have nothing else anywhere else in their army that can match the effect that Crisis gives.
@oldgrue · 742 weeks ago
Whelping troops units presents a logistical (and financial!) difficulty that many players find rather intimidating. The need to have 3-5 10+ strong blocks of termagaunts on hand per tervigon is a fairly significant investment.
abusepuppy 121p · 742 weeks ago
@oldgrue · 742 weeks ago
When focusing on the mathhammer and theory, reminding folks that a tervigon has some hidden costs is fairly polite.
In addition its nice to see someone reinforce their position that this codex is flexible and present other options.
Gx1080 · 742 weeks ago
I also blame GW for making a model really, really useful and either a)Putting a huge price tag on it or b)Not releasing it.
The prospect of conversions is a real turn off. Specially when is not as simple as "grab a marine and stick it to a Fantasy mount".
Von · 742 weeks ago
Bro_Lo 82p · 742 weeks ago
For me, the elite section of the codex really helps define the type of list you have, HG are easy to use, but there are other really great choices. The one thing that is important is that it's ESSENTIAL to use something the elite section in the codex, whatever it is. HG and Zoans give you great anti-mech/MCs and reasonable horde management. Other specialist choices characterise the lists. A lack of elites lends to a list without punch and often character.
gdmnw 50p · 741 weeks ago
I still believe that Warhammer 40,000 offers some tactical play. By which I mean that how you play does matter. What you are playing with is not the be all and end all of the game. Sure the balance is probably in favour of your army's composition but what you do with it is still very important.
After all, how often does a non-netlist win major tournaments. Often enough.
Katie Drake · 742 weeks ago
Seriously though, I'm shocked that people *still* haven't figured out the Nid Codex. So sad. =(
Loriness · 742 weeks ago
gdmnw 50p · 741 weeks ago
ManusCelerDei 53p · 742 weeks ago
Dezzo · 742 weeks ago
The next few sentences need to be read slowly and contemplated:
My main complaint is still that the codex could have been a lot better, given the new mechanics other newer codices prior to the Tyranids codex, introduced to the game, not implemented to the Tyranid codex, which would benefit tremendously from "flavored" or "themed" lists.
AND HELP GW SELL A SHIT LOT MORE MINIATURES.
but its quite obviously in the O' spirit of "I will shoot myself in the foot" GW, they truly missed the boat on this one.
I playtested with my own Tyranid army (borrowed models from friends too to test various list and mechanics) and watched other Tyranid players play their 5th Edition games the past year and I never fail to feel sad whenever I see a Tyranid army on the table... (also, I have seen more sad Tyranid players than happy ones.)
I am totally disappointed with the game design aspect of the Tyranid codex. 5th Edition opened so much possibilities for the new codex but GW decides to go for "we in the studio hate Tyranids! because they always eat Space Marines!" mindset and released a brainfart of a 5th Edition codex.
I still like Tyranids mind you. But I had more fun with the old codex than the new one.
Von · 742 weeks ago
Kirby 118p · 742 weeks ago
Loriness · 742 weeks ago
Does the codex have competitive build - Yes
Compare to other codex, does the nids codex give you large number of competitive builds (swarm build, mid size creature build, MC build, fast build, drop build, hybrid of the three sizes, shooty build, CC build) compare to other 5th codex? No, and this is where it fails.
Does it have any SC that could change the build? No
Everything is just a little short compared to other 5th dex, eg
Harpy - should be jetbike, or have hit and run, or W5. Anyone would do
T-fex - BS4, or 15pt cheaper
Fex - try 20pt cheaper
at 1750, it is difficult to make a good build if you are not using Tervigon and HG.
Loriness · 742 weeks ago
If you have a 100-150pt, anyone try to find a good option in Fast or Heavy.
In other 5th book, you can find a good option from 50 or 70pts, in Nids you will need minimum 170pts. There are not enough good options in the small points end in the codex.
abusepuppy 121p · 742 weeks ago
Many codices have expensive HS slot options; ours probably top most, but that's the nature of MCs.
gdmnw 50p · 741 weeks ago
Meister_Kai · 742 weeks ago
This is what I would play if I didn't give two craps about competitiveness:
HQ: 630
Hive Tyrant w/ Old Adversary, Paroxysm, Psychic Scream
2 Tyrant Guard
Hive Tyrant w/ Old Adversary, Paroxysm, Psychic Scream
2 Tyrant Guard
Elites: 300
2 Zoanthropes
2 Zoanthropes
1 Zoanthrope
Troops: 635
3 Warriors w/ Rending Claws, Deathspitters, Venom Cannon
3 Warriors w/ Rending Claws, Deathspitters, Venom Cannon
3 Warriors w/ Rending Claws, Deathspitters, Venom Cannon
3 Warriors w/ Rending Claws, Deathspitters, Venom Cannon
12 Termagants
11 Termagants
Fast Attack: 435
3 Shrikes w/ Rending Claws, Deathspitters, Venom Cannon
3 Shrikes w/ Rending Claws, Deathspitters, Venom Cannon
3 Shrikes w/ Rending Claws, Deathspitters, Venom Cannon
No Hive Guard, no Tyrannofexes, no Tervigons. Loses to anything with a Battle Cannon. Looks fun to play for me though.
Loriness · 742 weeks ago
Zoans gets shut by Librarian
There are 4 builds you need to be able to beat (at least 50/50) on paper
1- mech/foot SW
2- DE mech
3- mech/foot BA
4- mech guard
It does not look like it will pass 1, 3 and 4
Meister_Kai · 742 weeks ago
Actually DE wouldn't be too unwinnable, all the other ones would be a wash though.
tzeentchling 76p · 742 weeks ago
garthmichel 38p · 742 weeks ago
abusepuppy 121p · 742 weeks ago
http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/10/myth-of... has a few of my ideas, and many of the email articles go with it one way or another. Personally, I like Hive Guard, so my own lists tend to run them even if I don't strictly need to.