Kirb your enthusiasm!

WEBSITE HOSTED AT: www.3plusplus.net

"Pink isn't a color. It's a lifestyle." - Chumbalaya
"...generalship should be informing list building." - Sir Biscuit
"I buy models with my excess money" - Valkyrie whilst a waitress leans over him


Tuesday, September 6, 2011

NOVA Statistics Part 1


NOVA is all over so it's time for some statistics! MVB has kindly given me lots of information so it's time to data mine. Unlike with 'Ard Boyz we know exactly how many of each army were played and each army's results. This allows us to work out the win percentage of each army and the percentage of each army that did well (say top 20% of the field).

Before we go on though we must point out that NOVA is in fact multiple tournaments in one. Day 1 seeds everyone into Day 2 where there were 13 brackets of 16 players which played their own four game tournament ending up with 13 undefeated players on Day 2. Whilst this shouldn't affect the overall winning percentages and percentages of armies which made it into the top part of the draw, keep in mind that some players who did really well Day 1 (4-0/3-1) ended up doing poorly on Day 2 (0-4/1-3) due to stiffer competition. Which armies do poorly on Day 2 in the upper brackets may give us an indication of said army's competitiveness if they are consistent between the brackets. MVB has also promised to release some weighted data which will forcibly rank players on their Day 2 placement (i.e. whilst you may have gone 0-4 on Day in Bracket 1, you'll still finish in the Top 16). We'll do another post when that comes along.

So! let's get to some numbers. I've got the actual numbers and graphs for those who prefer either method. We'll start with the number of players for each army and their win percentage. There were 204 players total.

Dark Angels 23-17 (57.5%) – 5 players
Blood Angels 97-79 (55.1%) – 22 players
Grey Knights 140-116 (54.7%) – 32 players
Space Wolves 106-94 (53%) – 25 players
Imperial Guard 88-80 (52.4%) – 21 players
Dark Eldar 58-54 (51.8%) – 14 players
Orks 39-41 (48.8%) – 10 players
Witch Hunters 15-17 (46.9%) – 4 players
Black Templars 26-30 (46.4%) – 6 players
Necrons 11-13 (45.8%) – 3 players
Space Marines 96-120 (44.4%) – 27 players
Eldar 21-27 (43.8%) – 6 players
Tyranids 34-46 (42.5%) – 10 players
Tau 18-30 (37.5%) – 6 players
Chaos 16-32 (33.3%) – 6 players
Daemons 16-32 (33.3%) – 6 players


So what we see here are the usual suspects of 5th edition doing well based on a high number of players. Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard and Dark Eldar all have 50%+ win ratios and a decent pool of players. Unsurprisingly Grey Knights don’t have the highest win %. Knowing five GK players made the top 16 also suggests there were more GK players in the bottom tiers to balance this out (or we’d have seen a win percentage approaching 60%).

Dark Angels are also right up there in terms of winning percentage though with a small sample size this isn't reliable. One would expect them and Black Templars to do decently well with their 5th edition FAQs so this isn’t exactly an anomaly but to see them top the charts is pretty impressive. The low Black Templar percentage is somewhat surprising however but again there is a low sample size. What is interesting to note is the Space Marine winning percentage which is quite low despite being a 5th edition codex with strong builds (Vulkan, Bikes, etc.) with an appropriate sample size. Further digging would be required to find out if this was weighted by a lot of ‘less competitive’ individuals using Space Marines or whether this is the natural spread for Space Marines. i.e. look specifically at their lists and how they went on Day 2.

Once again Orks seem to be in limbo between the 5th edition books and the rest of the pack. Whilst they are below 50% they are not so by much and just a little bit ahead of the rest of armies. We then have a series of older books including Tyranids + Space Marines all hovering around in the 40% win ratio. Against the 5th edition books, this data looks to support that these books have a harder time and whilst aren't terrible, generally suffer in comparison (again though, Space Marines being here seems an anomaly). We do have to take this with a grain of Salt as only Orks, Nids and SM here have decently sized samples.

If we look at the competitive results spread we could identify more information. Let’s look at the percentage of armies which scored greater than a .60 which is an arbitrary number I have picked and ends up identifying the top 18.6% of the player field. Remember, these results have not been weighted for opponent strength on Day 2.

Dark Angels 2/5 = 40%
Blood Angels 8/22 = 36.4%
Space Wolves 8/25 = 32%
Grey Knights 10/32 = 31.3%
Dark Eldar 4/14 = 28.6%
Witchunters 1/4 = 25%
Tyranids 2/10 = 20%
Imperial Guard 3/21 = 14.3%


Fractions indicate number of players scoring .60 or greater out of the total number of players for that army. We see very little change at the top of the order though we still have a small sample size for Dark Angels and see Grey Knights slip back down the order somewhat once again indicating there might have been quite a few GK players in the bottom rungs.

What is interesting is how far Imperial Guard slips and the complete lack of regular Space Marine armies. A lot of IG players have voiced some complaints about the terrain being too bunched together and having too much BLoS. I believe the judges asked people to move the terrain out if it looked bunched together (I wasn’t there so cannot comment but I have heard conflicting stories in this regard) but in terms of BLoS terrain there was perhaps too much. There must be some for game balance but sometimes it seemed there were more BLoS terrain pieces than not. We won’t discuss the layout here as MVB has done this before and the standardisation, whilst potentially boring, helped the validity of the tournament in terms of variables controlled and aimed to minimise the impact of poor terrain on wins.

Furthermore, we see Witchunters and Tyranids sneaking into the top ~20%. We cannot take much from this without knowing their full line-up and army lists but it does indicate you can do well with a sub-par list if you are the better general. Unfortunately, as we can see in the top 16 bracket where the single Ork and Tyranid player went 1-7 combined on Day 2, when you repeatedly play such a list against good opponents with good lists, it’s hard to win. Despite both of these armies making the final top 16, they do not appear in these results having both scored around .45 due to their losses on Day 2.

If we take the competitive scoring down to .50 or the top 36.2% of the field the breakdown becomes like so:

DE 9/14 64.3%
Tau 3/6 = 50%
GK 15/32 46.9%
BA 10/22 = 45.5%
SW 11/25 = 44%
DA 2/5 = 40%
IG 8/21 38.1%
Orks 4/10 = 40%
Necrons 1/3 = 33.3%
SM 8/27 = 29.6%
WH 1/4 25%
Tyranids 2/10 20%
BT 1/6 = 16.7%


It's a terrible graph I know.

We see an immediate increase in number of armies and placements of specific armies such as Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard. We also see average increases for the rest of the top end 5th edition armies indicating a relatively normal distribution of these armies - ergo some indication of balance. This represents the more upper midfield of NOVA and we can see a greater spread of armies as the supposed generalship dips a bit (so those players with sub-par armies but good generalship are more capable of overcoming good armies) as well as significant increases for the ‘lower-end’ 5th edition books observed from the top of the NOVA heap – in this case Space Marines and Imperial Guard which both have large-ish sample sizes. This could indicate some factor impacted them on the day (i.e. terrain, lots of so-so players, lots of 3-1/2-2 armies not doing so well on Day 2, etc.) or could be indicative of Space Marines and Imperial Guard being on the bottom of the 5th edition pile (excluding Tyranids obviously). Unlikely as they both have very strong builds but possible.

We see some of the older books creep in here as well including Tau, Orks, Black Templars and Necrons. This once again indicates players with above average skill and milking the most of their respective codecies but not fighting at the very top of the rankings. It does show you can do well with these older books but you are going to have a very hard time repeatedly beating the best lists run by the best players.

What all of this data indicates is what we have pretty much know in terms of what’s good and what’s not. The 5th edition books bar Tyranids do well though Space Marines had a rather medicore appearance here and didn’t reach the upper tiers with regularity. These are probably the weakest of the two 5th edition books, Tyranids due to design flaws and Space Marines are showing their age - again though, more digging needs to be done in relation to Space Marines on such a poor showing. Orks seem to flit between being a ‘2nd-rate’ codex such as Eldar and Tyranids and a top-notch 5th edition style book. They, like the other older books, can do well in the middle of the pack and pose problems to opposing generals but when consistently put against the likes of 5th edition books with good generals, it’s hard for them to win consistently.

These results seem pretty consistent with what we saw from the 'Ard Boyz results in terms of army groupings. We now actually have total army numbers and win percentages so the data is far more reliable and we see Grey Knights being shoved firmly back into the 5th edition pack. Now all we need is weighted results from MVB and we can get some more data on what happened specifically on Day 2 in the brackets compared to overall.

Comments (27)

Loading... Logging you in...
  • Logged in as
I wonder if SMs suffer because the guys who love the power armor (who are good) are rocking the GK, BA, SW etc, either looking for a little flavor, or specializing their builds a bit. While teh noobs are rollin with the smurfs. This could be the result of everybody's bitching that they're sick of facing PA armies. They've simply hit maximum density, and the good players simply repaint and move on the speciality 'dex.
11 replies · active 706 weeks ago
Meister_Kai's avatar

Meister_Kai · 706 weeks ago

I think Space Marines are placed where they should be, it is only an "anomaly" because, well, the results are counter to what is constantly said on this site. I guess we'll have to wait for another Stelek-style "listen this army isn't good anymore" post before people wake up and smell the bacon.

Space Marines showing their age? What happened to there being no codex creep?

I suspect Dark Angels did so well because everyone probably played Deathwing.

Space Wolves and Grey Knights did so well because they are the best codices around.

Dark Eldar got as close as a xenos codex probably could, but unfortunately when your opponent saves 15+ 3+ saves in a row then wrecks your whole army with Njal there is nothing you can do.

The terrain was perfectly fine, showing the disadvantage of mech along with forcing the poor, poor mech guard players to do something more than sit and shoot the whole game is indeed criminal.

thats my .02, as angry sounding as it is.
Wait till lists are submitted. While SM have an old dex, it's got enough good options for...well, lets see, Mech Spam, Bikers, MotF w/ many Dreads, Fast & Slow, Foot TH/SS & friends...the list goes on.

You also don't even mention BA, despite it being high (and tout GKs as a winner, when BA did better in the rankings!). Granted, no lists, but I'd say lacks in GKs & DE are due to a lack of understanding of the dexes (wisdom doesn't come with time).

And apparently shooting got hit hard by the terrain? You need t o lighten up on the rage a bit, I'm sure your army's fine.
Meister_Kai's avatar

Meister_Kai · 706 weeks ago

First of all, I played Eldar, look at me with a serious face and tell me my army is fine.

You know, Orcs have a bunch of army builds available to them as well, you just only ever see battlewagon/boyz spam, much like SM in which you only see Vulcan and Shrike-Terminators ever really do good.

Lack" of Grey Knights come from there being so many of them, they could of likely knocked each other out, among other possibilities.

Dash lost his game because he forgot a SW SC special rule, which as any Xenos player knows usually means you lose the game (especially when that power is as flat-out brutal as Njal's)

Shooting didn't get hit hard, unless you count a few "all shooting all the time" armies that are used to dominating having to actually work for their wins for once.

Why am I so umadbro? Because the Tyranid debacle on this site made me facepalm huge-big-time. Everyone here was seemingly all about Tyranids being sort of gimp but fine, there are many threads from last winter where some other commentators and I fought against this but nope, nothing. Then Stelek wrote his piece and suddenly everyone is saying what was the truth to begin with.

Just like all this stat analysis, what happened to all tournament results not meaning anything? Or do we make an exception for NOVA, just to make up all these stats that make it look like SW and GW aren't just a little bit above the rest?

I personally don't get it.
Roland Durendal's avatar

Roland Durendal · 706 weeks ago

I'm curious as to the Tyranid debacle to which you refer. 'Nids did fairly well, seeing as they're prolly the worst 5th ED dex. A 'Nid player was in the top 10, and was right behind Stelek in pure competitive score.
First article has Kirby calling it competitive, but right next to Vanilla as the least flexable of 5e dexes.
Second article is Puppy explaining the joys (there apparently were none) and wonders (mono-build?) of 4e Nids. He's since stated that Nids are meh (not flexable enough), and has started a marine army. That said, his points are still relevant now.
Third article is VT being VT, pointing out stupid things happening in a swirling maelstorm of rage (another group's), getting some stuff wrong, and drawning in comments like no-one's business.

So, yeah, 3++ totally thought Nids were the best thing ever, then stated they were the worst. Totally.
To be fair, when they were released, you didn't have GK or DE on the scene, both of which give Nids a hard as heck time. And they already had a heard time against a lot of BA, SW, and IG builds, but it's certainly still possible to win.
InfinitysEnd's avatar

InfinitysEnd · 706 weeks ago

pretty sure 3++ was talking about how nids suffered a lot (and not just because of their FAQ) before stelek did. and considering we know both puppy and kirby have taken them to tournaments and documented their results, they've tried pretty hard to do well with them.

isnt kirby taking his to a tournament thismonth?

i think taking who wins the tournament and which armies do well at tournaments is different. you have a lot more armys and individuals to compare (like kirby says, sample sizes) than just the singular winner but as shown by this post, there is still a ton of what you dont know. all this sorta says is 5th edition books are generally quite good.
Your army's shit and I feel they should be updated before Tau & after Chaos. I'm not quite sure, but I seem to remember your previous post being slightly different, although I may have a faulty memory.

As for the various builds, people are limited by models, familiarity, & choosing to take what they know/like & win vs. starting something new. People get tired of Vanilla & swap to BA, SW, or GKs for a different style of play. They innately seek new experiences.

Yet again, you ignore BA's performance over GKs & SWs (I'm gonna check on stats for SW/BA placement, I'd love lists & matchups for this too).

As for being annoyed with Nids, I think they're better then some think they are, but not great due to the lack of spread anti-tank. It's Cruddace, and although he had others covering for him, it's not a great dex. I can't speak to how people thought about Nids as they were released here, although I think it's a similar misconception with all dexes, compounded by the bad design. Basically, a large portion of people make shitty choices, be it with lists, tactics, or both, and this really makes the difference. Combine this w/ Nids having a less then stellar dex, and there we go.

Finally, for tourney results, we usually ignore tournies with comp (and there are so many ways to comp things, be it just nerfing what the TO doesn't like, hitting duplicate choices, players scoring eachother, and so on), bizarre missions, and usually badly placed terrain (or lack of terrain, or spammed terrain). The big thing is just that people don't usually run good tournies. :/
Meister_Kai's avatar

Meister_Kai · 706 weeks ago

I'm ignoring BA because even though some fancy graphs show us they did "well", I remember seeing 1 BA army in the top 12, that is not good. That is why these statistics are flawed imo.
SM show their age in options - i.e. full tacticals or no weapons. The lists they make are still good lists though as mentioned above. I would not be surprised however, to see a lot of the SM lists which did really poorly were something like single rock TH/SS lists. It's an easy army to get into and has OMG TERMINATORS OF DOOM, etc.

In the end I wouldn't be surprised if they were the weakest of the 5th edition books (barring Tyarnids of course) but I would be surprised if they repeatedly ended up so low (I would expect them to be around the 50% mark for example).
Is there a breakdown of army lists by bracket - who made it to the 3-1 brackets, 2-2 brackets, etc? Or at least a breakdown of the wins for the 3-1 bracket would be illuminating I think, in addition to the results from the 4-0 bracket.
3 replies · active 706 weeks ago
I'd like a complete searchable database w/ the list of each player & exact info on W/L, that way we can cut out horrible lists & look at what's really winning & losing, along with vs. whom.
Still waiting for that from Mike.
Agreed. I'm really interested in who's beating who. If for no other reason than curiosity. It might explain why a certain army wins overall more. For example, BA might consistently beat all armies but SW and GK. And SW and GK do well against other armies, not as well as BA, but enough to get by. But when it comes to a SW vs. GK vs. BA for whatever reason you see BA not cutting it.

I would also like to see why some didn't place.

ie. All the top 1/3 IG lost to BA/DE/Etc. and therefor didn't get into the top 16. OR most IG lost to all foot/all mech/hybrid armies, etc...

It really can help you see things in the list building phase you normally wouldn't. If BA are constantly beating all foot/hybrid armies but dropping the ball against Mech, dig a little deeper for the anti-tank and, viola.
Small note Kirby, they have me listed as a Space Marine player, but I was playing Dark Angels. I went 4-4. It won't really change your numbers much, but just in case you feel like redoing the math. :)

And yes, all of the Dark Angel players I saw were using Deathwing or Deathwing with some Ravenwing/DA support.

I have already made my feelings on the terrain pretty clear, but for those that want to see what it looked like at NOVA, see the Deployment photo from my bat rep here: http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/09/nova-ba...

That was round 1 and terrain had been set by judges. Sure, some stuff got moved throughout the tournament for one reason or another, but every table had the same focus of terrain around the center of the table. I can live with the LoS blocking, but you have to spread that terrain out a bit. Each table basically had 2 narrow firing lanes and as you can see in the picture, a ton of open/wasted space on the board edges. Yet again favoring Mech and MSU armies.
3 replies · active 706 weeks ago
Table 1 was far worse, man. Corners had large ruins, middle had a giant peice of terrain.
The difference is marginal but I should...

And ya I'm pretty sure all DA were DW. Is anyone surprised ;P?
Just like all Tau will spam Crisis, Kirby. It's unfortunately the way of the dex at this time.
Another thing to take into account would be the same-army-matchups, which always lead to a 1 win 1 loose or 2 draw stats..
even more relevant to armies with low total entries to the tournament.
4 replies · active 706 weeks ago
That's an excellent point: cutting out fratricide would be useful, although mainly it would benefit stuff like Grey Knights and Space Wolves: the ones with the most armies, and thus most likely to play each other.
In general yes, but it will also strongly affect those cases where it is less probable but still happened (DA, BT).
If I get all that information and have time to sift through it I certainly will be excellent point.
One could do it for the first 4 rounds but since they renumbered in an unclear manner after that it will be harder for the second day.
Bearded Dan's avatar

Bearded Dan · 706 weeks ago

I'd be interested to know what sorts of lists the Ork players were running. I have been working on building an ork army for sometime, and with all the talk around the net about how bad they are, it can get a bit discouraging. I enjoy the Orks, but I also really like consistently winning games if I can help it.
1 reply · active 706 weeks ago
Meister_Kai's avatar

Meister_Kai · 706 weeks ago

The last thing Orks are is consistent. This is part of why they aren't good, some games you'll roll hot and conquer, other times you lose because lol BS 2 or something of the matter.

Orks are designed to be the "fun" army you play when you don't care if you win/lose.

Post a new comment

Comments by

Follow us on Facebook!

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...